This week, we are grateful to be joined by Collette Brown-Rodriguez for an interview on her career and passions in geoscience. Collette is based in the USA and has worked in geoscience for over 20 years, first within mining and now in the renewable sector. Her lived experiences growing up on both the Navajo Nation and Confederated Salish Kootenai tribal nations or reservations have shaped her career, and she has worked extensively with indigenous people to ensure positive outcomes for communities during industry operations. Collette is currently Director of Community and Tribal Relations at Avantus, a renewable energy company. She sits on the board of Apollo Silver and provides guidance to universities on geoscience curricula. Follow her on LinkedIn here.
(Geoscience for the Future)
Collette, thank you so much for joining us! Can you start by telling us a little bit about your career pathway- what does your current role involve and what was your pathway to get here?
(Collette Brown-Rodriguez)
Sure. Right now, I’m working for a renewable energy development company called Avantus. We focus on large scale renewable energy projects (massive solar farms, and battery storage). I’m also a board member for a mining exploration company based in Vancouver, Canada called Apollo Silver, and I volunteer for the American Exploration Mining Association. I am also working with the University of Arizona in helping them develop their curriculum, with an indigenous perspective on their mining course and sustainability.
“There’s a huge disconnect in the world about where everything around us comes from; people forget about mining and they totally want to disregard it”
My pathway started as an environmental activist in high school; my undergraduate was in environmental science and I was very anti-mining and anti-industry. The interesting thing is that my first internship was at a coal mining operation in New Mexico- and I fell in love with it, actually! I felt like I had potential to have a positive impact on doing things from an environmental and indigenous perspective in the right way. Being within the company and making progress towards what I felt would be better for people in general and for indigenous people, felt impactful.
After that, I was in the mining industry for about 20 years. I worked for BHP* for about 13 years. I went to Conoco Phillips, an oil and gas company, for about a year. I worked at Freeport McMoran for about four years and then I went to South 32, another mining company, for about two years. And then I wanted to do something a little bit different and to help my people with renewable energy development, so I got into the industry after finishing an MBA.
There’s a huge disconnect in the world about where everything around us comes from; people forget about mining and they totally want to disregard it. They don’t want to believe that it’s there and that we need it. I love the fact that I’m now able to come into a different industry and spread awareness about the importance of mining; we need mining, we want low-cost solar panels, we need silver, copper, all the metals we need in order to support the transition and to fight climate change. So, it’s a really interesting perspective. When I first came into renewables, many had a view of ‘oh mining, so horrible, they just tear up the land’. But I say ‘Wait a minute. We need mining!’ I’m trying to educate as much as I can on why we need mining and how we can do it right.
What a varied career pathway! You’ve been involved in indigenous relations throughout your career; could you tell us why you feel passionately on this topic and how you became involved in that aspect of industry?
In my role with BHP, I was working on the permits for a mining project on Navajo Nation* land, and I realised that in trying to develop the project, our counterpart to the project wasn’t doing very well on stakeholder engagement working with the Navajo Nation community- I kept seeing people making faux pas. It taught me that you can have the perfect science, but if you don’t have the right stakeholder communication and indigenous people’s perspective in project development, your project’s going to fail – and that’s exactly what happened. That project failed, and a lot of companies spent a lot of money on a project that did not go forward because they failed in that space. That project would have brought in millions, and hundreds of jobs to the Navajo Nation, but that wasn’t enough to get it approved and through the process – there were other things that needed to be engaged on with the local community and many other stakeholders.
“if you don’t have the right stakeholder communication and indigenous people’s perspective in project development, your project’s going to fail “
I grew up on both the Confederated Salish Kootenai and Navajo tribal nations or reservations. I understood what a lot of the indigenous people, especially the elders, were saying- ‘You shouldn’t be doing this. You shouldn’t be saying this. Why are you not giving us the truth? Why are you not being transparent?’ It made me think, ‘How do we do this right?’
Coming from my science background, and because I was very much an introvert, I didn’t like to interact with people! But I knew I needed to learn because if I didn’t understand this, no projects I worked on would ever be successful because we need stakeholder engagement and especially indigenous people’s perspectives. I started a job shadowing a late mentor of mine whose name was Lucy Davis. She was Navajo, and was a community manager and stakeholder engagement manager and she let me shadow and learn. Even though I grew up on the reservation, I hadn’t really been deeply involved in the politics or the government side of things until I started on that path.
Native Land territories across North America (https://native-land.ca/)
This is such an important space because indigenous people are the minority of the minority. Here in the US, we represent about 1.8% of the population. If you take that number and then you say how many of those people are actually in mining, it’s even smaller. It’s so important to have that indigenous perspective because so many of the mining opportunities that are left are on or near tribal land. If you look at a map of the ancestral lands of the Native Americans in North America, they are everywhere. When a company is thinking about these projects, no matter where you’re at in the world, more than likely there were indigenous people there.
Indigenous people have stories, they have cultural ties to the land. It is their lifeblood, I don’t know how else to explain it. For example, In the Navajo culture, you take the afterbirth once you have a child, and you bury it in a part of the land that’s important to your children. My daughters’ afterbirth is buried on the Navajo Nation in a special place. So if that’s the culture, think of all the different places where the tie to the earth is buried. That direct physical, cultural, spiritual tie makes indigenous people so much more worried and stressed when it comes to development- how do you do it in a way that’s respectful?
“each tribe has its own history that might be slightly different from another tribe. Their cultures, their languages, their stories are all different and unique”
In the UK there is often criticism that many diverse people can be seen as one homogeneous ‘minority’ group- Is that a conflict when you’re working with different indigenous groups from different backgrounds, different identities, different reservations?
I understand it’s easier to put people in a monolith, but we’re definitely not. Here in the US, we have 574 federally recognised tribes. There are things that are common amongst a lot of those 574 tribes, but the majority are not. The tie to the land, the federal laws that impact these people, this is similar across the world. But then you have to look at each tribe, because each tribe has its own history that might be slightly different from another tribe. Their cultures, their languages, their stories are all different and unique. Their foods will be different- they had to adapt and work with different environments, so they’re going to be unique in that way.
So it’s both. There are some things that are general, but I would say the majority of it is not. You have to really learn the difference between those two and for me, working in this space, I’m very careful of saying I’m not representing all indigenous people, but I do want to bring an indigenous perspective to whatever it is I’m working on or advising on.
You mentioned that you’re now offering your expertise for those in education. Do you have any core values or themes that you find yourself repeating, things that you want to teach the next generation of geoscientists?
The doctrine of discovery was the basis for how indigenous people across the world were displaced from their homelands. Their lands were taken from them because they were considered savages. It’s really important for people to learn that history, because then they can understand why the laws were developed the way they were. It’s informed how the Western world works with indigenous people everywhere. How did it impact the country you’re in, in how they view and work with indigenous people? In Australia for example, how did it inform how aboriginals were treated? Using that as the foundation of ‘this is where this came from and how did it impact all these different indigenous people?’ That’s very important.
“Make sure you give the space for an actual indigenous person to come in and talk about their lived experiences”
And then just listening- Make sure you give the space for an actual indigenous person to come in and talk about their lived experiences. I get frustrated sometimes because there’s a lot of non-native people who have gone to get their Masters or PhD degree about indigenous people, but it doesn’t make them an indigenous person. I want the next generation of geoscientists to always ask themselves how they have tried to ensure those who have the lived experience as indigenous peoples have had a chance to express themselves within your project.
Collette on the Confederated Salish Kootenai Tribe in Montana, a special place to her that only tribal members can access.
In the different roles you’ve had, what have been the most challenging parts? Has it been working in this space of mediation, of translator between indigenous issues and the industry bottom line?
I would absolutely say the most challenging aspect is being an indigenous person working for a corporation. It’s very common that you work in a company in which you are very much a minority. You tend to be afraid to bring your perspective and you can feel a little bit ostracised on that side. And then you get ostracised from your own people, they can see you as a traitor because you’re working for a corporation. You have to try and balance the interests of both and that can be very difficult. I say my superpower is walking in both worlds and trying to maintain my mental health and my physical health and my spiritual health at the same time is hard. I know it’s not just me in this situation. I would say other folks of diverse backgrounds probably have similar issues- we need a support group where we just come together and say, ‘hey, I’m not the only one who’s feeling like this!’
It definitely sounds like you need a network! We’ve discussed the hard parts- but what’s been the best thing about your career pathway? You’ve seen a lot of issues, but there must also be a lot of value?
Oh yes, absolutely. Even though I’ve stepped out of the mining world, I love mining. I’m still on the board (of a mining company) and every time we have board meetings, I love it. I feel I’ve had really positive impacts when it comes to how do you do mining projects in the right way.
‘Licence to operate’ is really about how you bring back benefits to that community, or that part of the land, that is offering something to the world. How do you give back, in terms of environment and people, to that place that is giving you that mineral?
When I first started in the mining industry, I really struggled because my family were like ‘I can’t believe you’re an environmentalist, now you’re working for a coal mine’. I talked to a Navajo medicine man, and he said, look, the reality is that life is a balance of good and bad. Think about your heart. You’re breathing in good air and you’re breathing out bad air. To keep you alive, your oxygen and carbon dioxide have to be in balance. We need people like you in mining because you’re helping bring that balance. You’re helping bring the balance to something we need. We need mining and that’s important.
“It’s actually a fear of mine that less people are going into geoscience and it’s a fear of mine that even less indigenous people are going into geoscience”
Geoscience industry often has a bad reputation, and alongside that geoscience enrolments are falling. From a perspective of someone who is seeing that good and that bad, and that balance, what would you say to people who grew up in the same reservation as you, or students from different identities, would you encourage them to take up geoscience?
It’s actually a fear of mine that less people are going into geoscience and it’s a fear of mine that even less indigenous people are going into geoscience. We need geoscience. 98% of the things around us have been touched by mining. Without mining, we can’t have the modern things that we love in the world, our computers, our phones, our electric cars. It’s so important to not forget that our modern lifestyle is built on the backbones of the mining industry.
People also don’t realise mining has really transformed many countries because it’s such a long-term impactful industry- and yes, that impact can be good and bad. Making sure we can be a part of responsible mining is so rewarding. We need more people of all walks of life coming into geoscience roles because it’s so important and it is going to get even more important in the future. I would say it’s almost like a higher purpose, because if you’re in the mining industry, you’re helping provide the world a resource that spans across multiple countries, that goes into so many different things. People forget that. It’s important for people to consider being in the geosciences, to be able to be a part of the solution.
*One of the largest First Nations in the USA